Recollections Comments http://recollections.blogsome.com Just another WordPress weblog Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:59:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Craig Nolin http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-17 Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:08:32 +0000 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-17 Indeed. I didn't even touch on the love proposition, thanks for adding that. I think most in the comments have given some real valid points. It is sad that Scripture has been mistaken by so many to convey that God's plan is not logical, reasonable or understandable and so reject anything logical, reasonable and understandable to be of the flesh and not of the spirit. Indeed. I didn’t even touch on the love proposition, thanks for adding that.

I think most in the comments have given some real valid points.

It is sad that Scripture has been mistaken by so many to convey that God’s plan is not logical, reasonable or understandable and so reject anything logical, reasonable and understandable to be of the flesh and not of the spirit.

]]> by: Terry McGee http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-16 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:43:13 +0000 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-16 Go Craig! Absolutely! Evil has a purpose, and evil is not powerful enough that He cannot save us from it. If God is all powerful and will not save everyone, then He is not all loving. If God is all loving and will not save everyone, then He is not all powerful. We know that He is both all loving and all powerful. Go Craig!

Absolutely!

Evil has a purpose, and evil is not powerful enough that He cannot save us from it.

If God is all powerful and will not save everyone, then He is not all loving.

If God is all loving and will not save everyone, then He is not all powerful.

We know that He is both all loving and all powerful.

]]> by: Craig Nolin http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-15 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:18:42 +0000 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-15 Hello, From what I can see, you have only mentioned two possibilities concerning why God would delay concerning evil. 1) God delays because evil has no ultimate purpose. 2) God delays because evil is so great He waits as long as He can to save us from it. I disagree with point 2 empathetically, so much so, it really disgusts my rational mind far more than my emotion of seeing some of my love ones consigned to hell. If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, then there is no EVIL which is so powerful that God cannot save us from it. I also disagree to Point 1, very strongly as well. I believe evil has a purpose, otherwise God would not have allowed it, or created it. If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, and EVIL exists, then evil has a purpose. So let us look at the two propositional conclusions: A) If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, then there is no EVIL which is so powerful that God cannot save us from it. B) If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, and EVIL exists, then evil has a purpose. Therefore, we conclude with these two propositional conclusions: God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING. EVIL exists, and has a purpose. EVIL is not powerful enough that God cannot save us from it. The problem of evil and it's purpose is the ability to make choices and learn from those choices: Freedom of Will. Freedom of Will, is not self determination concerning our salvation, as Augustine and many in Arminianism want us to believe. Freedom of will has nothing to do with our salvation, it has to do with our growing and maturing process. We were created without the knowledge of the truth, when we were created, we were created ignorant. We as children, knew neither good or evil and so must experience both in order to understand what is true. God is all knowing and all powerful, able to discipline us accordingly and bring all creation into righteousness. The purpose of the knowledge of good and evil, which brings death, is so that we can be made aware of the knowledge of the truth, which is Life. Death, in the end is swallowed up by Life. Isaiah 25:8 NIV He will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. Craig Hello,

From what I can see, you have only mentioned two possibilities concerning why God would delay concerning evil.

1) God delays because evil has no ultimate purpose.

2) God delays because evil is so great He waits as long as He can to save us from it.

I disagree with point 2 empathetically, so much so, it really disgusts my rational mind far more than my emotion of seeing some of my love ones consigned to hell.

If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, then there is no EVIL which is so powerful that God cannot save us from it.

I also disagree to Point 1, very strongly as well. I believe evil has a purpose, otherwise God would not have allowed it, or created it.

If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, and EVIL exists, then evil has a purpose.

So let us look at the two propositional conclusions:

A) If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, then there is no EVIL which is so powerful that God cannot save us from it.

B) If God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING, and EVIL exists, then evil has a purpose.

Therefore, we conclude with these two propositional conclusions:

God is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING.

EVIL exists, and has a purpose.

EVIL is not powerful enough that God cannot save us from it.

The problem of evil and it’s purpose is the ability to make choices and learn from those choices: Freedom of Will.

Freedom of Will, is not self determination concerning our salvation, as Augustine and many in Arminianism want us to believe. Freedom of will has nothing to do with our salvation, it has to do with our growing and maturing process.

We were created without the knowledge of the truth, when we were created, we were created ignorant.

We as children, knew neither good or evil and so must experience both in order to understand what is true.

God is all knowing and all powerful, able to discipline us accordingly and bring all creation into righteousness.

The purpose of the knowledge of good and evil, which brings death, is so that we can be made aware of the knowledge of the truth, which is Life.

Death, in the end is swallowed up by Life.

Isaiah 25:8 NIV
He will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

Craig

]]> by: Terry McGee http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-14 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 06:55:44 +0000 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-14 As a person currently leaning toward Universal Restoration, I must express my gratitude for your tact and sensitivity on the subject. It appears that you have remained teachable as a little child just as Christ suggested that we should all strive to be. Among Universalists, there are several schools of thought. One factor for consideration is the idea that scripture speaks separately of salvation (or justification to keep the point clear) and sanctification. Philosophically speaking, it is my understanding that the point of remaining here is to give all the opportunity to become sanctified. I believe that this process is the very reason that these events were put in motion; to give mankind a chance to face evil and overcome it (with the assistance of the Holy Spirit). The amount of time and incarnations that this will require is irrelevant. I believe that the enemy has effectively stolen a great deal of our potency by subtly introducing twists on doctrine that sterilize the gospel and painting a false picture of our loving Father. Just like a lens on a camera, any filter we place at the head of our interpretive mechanism funnels the gospel through that filter. If we read the texts through the filter of eternal torment, every scripture will seem to support that idea. The same goes for any idea that we turn into a belief (including Universal restoration). I don't believe these things because of their scriptural support so much as I believe it is in line with what I know of the nature of my Father. He is love, and will do whatever it takes to bring all of His children back to Him. As a person currently leaning toward Universal Restoration, I must express my gratitude for your tact and sensitivity on the subject. It appears that you have remained teachable as a little child just as Christ suggested that we should all strive to be.

Among Universalists, there are several schools of thought. One factor for consideration is the idea that scripture speaks separately of salvation (or justification to keep the point clear) and sanctification.

Philosophically speaking, it is my understanding that the point of remaining here is to give all the opportunity to become sanctified. I believe that this process is the very reason that these events were put in motion; to give mankind a chance to face evil and overcome it (with the assistance of the Holy Spirit). The amount of time and incarnations that this will require is irrelevant.

I believe that the enemy has effectively stolen a great deal of our potency by subtly introducing twists on doctrine that sterilize the gospel and painting a false picture of our loving Father. Just like a lens on a camera, any filter we place at the head of our interpretive mechanism funnels the gospel through that filter. If we read the texts through the filter of eternal torment, every scripture will seem to support that idea. The same goes for any idea that we turn into a belief (including Universal restoration).

I don’t believe these things because of their scriptural support so much as I believe it is in line with what I know of the nature of my Father. He is love, and will do whatever it takes to bring all of His children back to Him.

]]> by: Recollector http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-11 Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:05:40 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-11 Thanks for these comments. Both of them, in different ways, have made me realize that perhaps I'm coming at this the wrong way. Perhaps I'm wrong to have seen my "moving beyond" the parishes of Debatedom and academia as mature steps; in fact, my dismissal of Debatedom as a world that once meant a great deal to me might be immature, even cynical. The most mature thing may be to embrace the "parish" in which you find yourself, and work out from it towards an embrace of the world--to move from the particular to the universal (as the biblical story itself seems to) instead of from abstract, universal categories to the particular. Thanks for these comments. Both of them, in different ways, have made me realize that perhaps I’m coming at this the wrong way. Perhaps I’m wrong to have seen my “moving beyond” the parishes of Debatedom and academia as mature steps; in fact, my dismissal of Debatedom as a world that once meant a great deal to me might be immature, even cynical. The most mature thing may be to embrace the “parish” in which you find yourself, and work out from it towards an embrace of the world–to move from the particular to the universal (as the biblical story itself seems to) instead of from abstract, universal categories to the particular.

]]> by: Camassia http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-10 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:33:16 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-10 Good post, and something I've been struggling with as well. It's interesting to think, though, that for most of human history most people never did get outside their little clan or village or whatever. Even large cities, before the technological age, tended to develop little neighborhoods where families would live for generations (as they still do in a lot of the world). It raises the possibility that "mature" at least partly means "adapted to the environment," and so what is mature in one culture isn't necessarily mature in another one. Recently I startled my lifelong-Christian boyfriend, for instance, by telling him that when I was growing up the "mature" thing was to accept the transcience of everything, and so the hope of eternal life seemed childish. By the same token, I think our tendency to regard the abstract as more mature than the personal is partly a function of the fact that our overcrowded society obliges us to think of people in categories and systems rather than as persons. I think this accounts for much of the trend in liberal theology toward turning God into an abstraction ("the ground of all being" and suchlike) and regarding Jesus as an ambassador for abstract principles of justice and love rather than important as a *person.* Good post, and something I’ve been struggling with as well. It’s interesting to think, though, that for most of human history most people never did get outside their little clan or village or whatever. Even large cities, before the technological age, tended to develop little neighborhoods where families would live for generations (as they still do in a lot of the world). It raises the possibility that “mature” at least partly means “adapted to the environment,” and so what is mature in one culture isn’t necessarily mature in another one. Recently I startled my lifelong-Christian boyfriend, for instance, by telling him that when I was growing up the “mature” thing was to accept the transcience of everything, and so the hope of eternal life seemed childish. By the same token, I think our tendency to regard the abstract as more mature than the personal is partly a function of the fact that our overcrowded society obliges us to think of people in categories and systems rather than as persons. I think this accounts for much of the trend in liberal theology toward turning God into an abstraction (”the ground of all being” and suchlike) and regarding Jesus as an ambassador for abstract principles of justice and love rather than important as a *person.*

]]> by: Jason http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-9 Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:50:41 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/08/14/the-naivety-of-the-biblical-witness/#comment-9 Recollector: I appreciate this, not least the use of Barth to illuminate this dilemma. This can be a powerful point of meditation -- what Paul calls the wisdom of God which seems like foolishness to the 'wise'. Another point worth noting, though, is that we are always resident in a 'parish' of some sort, even when it is the parochialism of Western Modernity, with its pretensions to universalism (in that sense, more of a rival to the church than a context for the church). To take it a step further, then, the universalism of the church (and Israel) is an alternative to the unversalism of the West, even though they have been too often confused. But the claim to universalism by a parish is not unique to the church. I suspect that the universalism of the Modern West is a parody of the church's, with quite negative consequences (e.g. the church, at its best, has remembered that it is a parish, and only truly universal eschatologically.). The greatest task for us -- you and me in particular -- is how to live as members of all three parishes: the church, the academy, and the Modern West, without either losing our souls or being crushed by the task. Recollector:
I appreciate this, not least the use of Barth to illuminate this dilemma. This can be a powerful point of meditation — what Paul calls the wisdom of God which seems like foolishness to the ‘wise’.

Another point worth noting, though, is that we are always resident in a ‘parish’ of some sort, even when it is the parochialism of Western Modernity, with its pretensions to universalism (in that sense, more of a rival to the church than a context for the church). To take it a step further, then, the universalism of the church (and Israel) is an alternative to the unversalism of the West, even though they have been too often confused. But the claim to universalism by a parish is not unique to the church. I suspect that the universalism of the Modern West is a parody of the church’s, with quite negative consequences (e.g. the church, at its best, has remembered that it is a parish, and only truly universal eschatologically.). The greatest task for us — you and me in particular — is how to live as members of all three parishes: the church, the academy, and the Modern West, without either losing our souls or being crushed by the task.

]]> by: Recollector http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-8 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:49:39 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-8 Interesting idea. The 2 Peter passage does seem to be focusing on the dissolution of the elements. But it also addresses the readers themselves as a reason for God's delay (God is "patient <i>with you</i>"). You're hitting on a larger point, though, that Keith also stresses: that universalism need not mean the denial of any form of punishment for "the godless," only the denial of indefinite punishment. But God does not relish even that, so he waits. Interesting idea. The 2 Peter passage does seem to be focusing on the dissolution of the elements. But it also addresses the readers themselves as a reason for God’s delay (God is “patient with you“).

You’re hitting on a larger point, though, that Keith also stresses: that universalism need not mean the denial of any form of punishment for “the godless,” only the denial of indefinite punishment. But God does not relish even that, so he waits.

]]> by: A reader http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-7 Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:29:49 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-7 It seems to me that God's delay in bringing about the end of things could be related more to the redemption of creation than to the ultimate fate of individuals. Colossians 1:20 speaks of Christ's plan to "reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." So when 2 Peter 3 speaks of "not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance," perhaps this is a reference to the earthly situation rather than eternal fate. The Flood context might be evidence of that -- the "destruction of the godless" would be very real but would not necessarily be a reference to hell as we think of it. In other words, perhaps God delays because he not only wants to save individuals but also wants to save his creation (through bringing people to repentance) -- but eventually redemption will require a destructive act. It seems to me that God’s delay in bringing about the end of things could be related more to the redemption of creation than to the ultimate fate of individuals. Colossians 1:20 speaks of Christ’s plan to “reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.” So when 2 Peter 3 speaks of “not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance,” perhaps this is a reference to the earthly situation rather than eternal fate. The Flood context might be evidence of that — the “destruction of the godless” would be very real but would not necessarily be a reference to hell as we think of it.

In other words, perhaps God delays because he not only wants to save individuals but also wants to save his creation (through bringing people to repentance) — but eventually redemption will require a destructive act.

]]> by: Recollector http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-6 Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:22:13 +0100 http://recollections.blogsome.com/2006/06/06/universalism-and-gods-delay/#comment-6 Keith, Thanks for the response and for the recommended readings. I might agree that the problem of "divine evil" is a particularly pressing one for Christians. So in dealing with that problem, universalism is of great help. But the remaining problem of horrendous natural and human evils remains pressing in some form. As you say, though, this is a large topic. I'll look forward to reading your work on the subject. Keith,

Thanks for the response and for the recommended readings. I might agree that the problem of “divine evil” is a particularly pressing one for Christians. So in dealing with that problem, universalism is of great help. But the remaining problem of horrendous natural and human evils remains pressing in some form. As you say, though, this is a large topic. I’ll look forward to reading your work on the subject.

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